44 replies to this topic

[Siliconwolf]

In the lore, before the discovery of the Helm library core and the resulting recovery of a lot that was lostech, battlemechs were largely just scavenged and patched together. What better way to experience this in-game than with IFF and various other HUD failures! Wonky minimap and non-functional IFF? That's what you get when you're piloting an Atlas that's all scavenged parts and jury-rigged electronics! OK, by 3050 this really wasn't the case anymore, but we're just going to say you mouthed off to your CO a bit too much, you're some periphery pirate or you're like Ravill Pryde and your Tech hates you.

[neviu]

Oooooh

[S1lent0ne]

I also have a hard time believing that given the ability to reverse engineer that there would ever be 'lostech'. The tech had to be invented from scratch in the first place so having a copy of the finished product, even if it was disabled or damaged, to use as a road map would allow for a quick redevelopment of said tech.

Back when the lore was first written information existed in a much more tangible form so the concept was easy to stomach. Considering the wide dissemination of information (even with state level forces trying to stop it) and the vast array of storage media both physical and virtual that exists now, I don't think the idea of lostech makes much sense.

[Ialochin]

Dude, just Use the Force when your HUD fails you. Luke, trust your feelings, etc.

Edited by Ialochin, 10 April 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[Siliconwolf]

S1lent0ne, on 10 April 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

I also have a hard time believing that given the ability to reverse engineer that there would ever be 'lostech'. The tech had to be invented from scratch in the first place so having a copy of the finished product, even if it was disabled or damaged, to use as a road map would allow for a quick redevelopment of said tech.

Back when the lore was first written information existed in a much more tangible form so the concept was easy to stomach. Considering the wide dissemination of information (even with state level forces trying to stop it) and the vast array of storage media both physical and virtual that exists now, I don't think the idea of lostech makes much sense.

In the books, some of the stuff was reversed engineered, ferro-fiberous armor for one. The material for jump-drive cores was as well, though it wasn't as efficient as the lostech version. Other stuff like Endo-Steel wasn't as much lostech, just the orbital factories required to make it were prime targets for enemies to blow up and they just didn't have the facilities to create a lot of it. For other stuff, they had incomplete plans. They were nuking whole planets, so while the data may be around on the planets somewhere, it would likely be hard to track down. With modern technology, I agree, the level of lostech that was experienced in the books is unlikely, but when you're dealing with older sci-fi stories, you just kind of have to go with it.

[ThinkTank]

How can you reverse engineer a power plant when you don't have electricity?

[roguetrdr]

ThinkTank, on 10 April 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

How can you reverse engineer a power plant when you don't have electricity?

Possibly the stupidest thing I've yet seen on here

[Erasus Magnus]

dont give them ideas, man!

[RedDragon]

S1lent0ne, on 10 April 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:

I also have a hard time believing that given the ability to reverse engineer that there would ever be 'lostech'. The tech had to be invented from scratch in the first place so having a copy of the finished product, even if it was disabled or damaged, to use as a road map would allow for a quick redevelopment of said tech.

Back when the lore was first written information existed in a much more tangible form so the concept was easy to stomach. Considering the wide dissemination of information (even with state level forces trying to stop it) and the vast array of storage media both physical and virtual that exists now, I don't think the idea of lostech makes much sense.

Although one shouldn't put too much "realistic" thought into it, I guess the idea of lostech isn't that far fetched.
If you put it in the right perspective, it makes a lot more sense. The era during which the technology got lost is the era of the first 3 Succession Wars (2786–3025). An era of IS-wide conflicts with only few years in between. During this wars, technology-centers and factories were main targets for all kind of weapons, even ABC-weapons. Imagine a world-wide war today during which someone blows up Lockheed Martin in the US with a nuclear weapon. Sure, there will still be people who know how to build F-35s etc., but because there is a global war raging, you don't put all of your resources into building a new plant. You will see to it that the still functional weapons are kept maintained and the cheapest planes and tanks mass-produced (we saw that in WW2: In a war of attrition, quality (Germany) must surrender to quantity (US, Russia) in the long term.
Add to this the fact that 1) The Succession Wars where conflicts over hundreds of planets – you don't simply rebuild a plant that was destroyed on a far-off planet that now is under enemy occupation or cut off from interstellar communication. And 2) there is the power of Comstar, which actively worked to prevent any technological rediscovery by the Successor States.
When you look at it, there are in fact precious few years between the single great wars, and for such a short time span, the rediscovery came quite quickly despite the circumstances (and even in this time there always were some armed conflicts in each greater House).
So I guess it's much more plausible (or at least can be) than people make it sound.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Some of you people need to research your own history, that is to say the history of western civilization, and the fact that many Greek/Roman technologies and advancements were forgotten for hundreds of years and many more great documents would have been lost if not for the efforts of the monks of the period (aka Comstar in the Battletech future). Would be even harder to preserve highly complex digital and manufacturing knowhow in a future plagued by constant electricity blackouts, worlds contaminated by nuclear fallout etc.

Contrary to the great myth of continuous upward human "progress" over time, civilization's development has been one of rocky starts, backslides, dips, valleys and generally great suffering all around, especially before we lucked out and discovered the great oil bonanza of the 20th century which we are now rapidly exhausting with no viable replacement in sight and a completely trashed natural environment to boot.

Mechwarrior's vision of a future dark age is extremely plausible.... in fact I suspect we'll be suffering a new dark age long before then, probably in some of our own lifetimes.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 11 April 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[DerSpecht]

Siliconwolf, on 10 April 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:

In the lore, before the discovery of the Helm library core and the resulting recovery of a lot that was lostech, battlemechs were largely just scavenged and patched together.

Thats actually wrong.

[Hotaru Tomoe]

... That's stupid OP. Reaching for ideas to defend bugs is bad and you should feel bad.

[Siliconwolf]

DerSpecht, on 11 April 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Thats actually wrong.

Well that's not even remotely helpful. Quite often in the novels it's mentioned that mechs were often repaired with salvaged parts. It's also mentioned several times that the Helm memory core discovery was what brought back a great deal of the 'former' lostech. Putz around on sarna and read the pre-clan novels and you should see that for youself. If you have something useful to add, then add it.

Hotaru Tomoe, on 11 April 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

... That's stupid OP. Reaching for ideas to defend bugs is bad and you should feel bad.

It's silly, not stupid. I'm pretty certain no one thought I was seriously 'defending bugs', except for you apparently. Go troll elsewhere please..

[aptest]

1 lesson from history that can be applied to this case is that Lostech periods have happened to us humans in the past. Prolonged wars and religious purges can bring about a systematic destruction of knowledge.

Examples would be the destruction of the library of alexandria, a big event(s) at it's time, the over-writing or the original Indian culture and knowedge base by the Khmer and obviously the dark ages.

The better question for me is, how can machines be repaired if the knowledge to construct them is missing? I can see repairs done through replacing whole components from salvage - but for mechs to attain the longevity that I see in the books, such a method of repair requires mechs to not see a lot of combat: I.E. mechs need to be a cold war weapon that stays in the hangar, to attain this kind of longevity under the conditions that it can only be repaired by salvaging parts from a compatible mech.

[DerSpecht]

Siliconwolf, on 11 April 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Well that's not even remotely helpful. Quite often in the novels it's mentioned that mechs were often repaired with salvaged parts. It's also mentioned several times that the Helm memory core discovery was what brought back a great deal of the 'former' lostech. Putz around on sarna and read the pre-clan novels and you should see that for youself. If you have something useful to add, then add it.

The library found by the gray death was not the only one. On terra the order had already gathered knowledge and hat facilities to produce and maintain a huge lostech force.
New mech designs like the wolfhound and the zeus were introduced and technology was on its way before the clan invasion due to the davion-steiner alliance.
The clans had lostech and were able to reproduce it. So basically the never lost it but manufactured and improved allt hat stuff in their absence to the IS.

It all depends on the point of view.

[RainbowToh]

Ialochin, on 10 April 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

Dude, just Use the Force when your HUD fails you. Luke, trust your feelings, etc.

That I had to do a couple of times when the HUD bug got me. Truly hardcore mode. I even had to listen in to the missile lock tone beep to know when to fire lol.

Hotaru Tomoe, on 11 April 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

... That's stupid OP. Reaching for ideas to defend bugs is bad and you should feel bad.

It is a joke. OP is being sarcastic.....

[Alilua]

'working as intended'

[Jacob Dieffenbach]

Funnily enough, this calls to mind how Aidan Pryde died at Tukayyid.

His traditional 'Mech had gotten destroyed IIRC, so he had to pilot a Timber Wolf that was filled with glitches. During the final battle, all of the electronics in his cockpit shorted out, so he was forced to fight off the Com Guard by visuals alone while the rest of the Jade Falcons boarded DropShips and fled.

[Evil Ed]

RainbowToh, on 11 April 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

That I had to do a couple of times when the HUD bug got me. Truly hardcore mode. I even had to listen in to the missile lock tone beep to know when to fire lol.

Had it yesterday and damn it felt good when I got two kills and lead my team to victory. Thanks PGI for giving me this great moment!

[Dr B00t]

DerSpecht, on 11 April 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Thats actually wrong.

DerSpecht, on 11 April 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

Thats actually wrong.

nerd fight! nerd fight!

i actually enjoyed reading this...im not very well versed on the whole battletech lore, so i found this entertaining

also here is a real-world example...using Iran's F-14A Tomcats

http://en.wikipedia....-14_Tomcat#Iran

Edited by Dr B00t, 11 April 2013 - 03:37 AM.